Curse

Leventh · May 25, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

arrogant, yes. overblown ego, yep. slayer of all warriors, you betcha.

offnote: my build is an anti-warrior (get off ma monk) build. the pois. is great to for their high armor. and any half-wit ranger who knows howto kite will still prove the victor when being chased by a warrior of anykind (yes, even if they can snare/mana drain).

thurinn · May 25, 2005, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I agree fully with taking down cloth-wearers first. Why do you think the W was the last one alive?

It's especially fun using Incendiary Arrows against Necros. The grunt that they make as they're interrupted is just funny. And with IA they're having to make that grunt every second or so. Music to my ears.

I object to this though:

Quote:

The apparent edge you have over a warrior is due to the fact that you are loading up with an anti-warrior skillbar, which works because of the popularity of warriors, while the warrior is not loading an anti ranger skillbar, due to the lack of skilled rangers.

My build wasn't made as an anti-warrior. On the contrary, it's a caster-killer build. I just take along Whirling Defense to keep me alive long enough to kill a caster or two if the other team decides to make me their target. It just so happens that Incendiary Arrows makes everybody and not just casters useless for 8 seconds, while taking massive damage and draining their energy (from being interrupted after starting a skill).

Dred Skullord · May 25, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

a ranger is not around to match a warrior.
1) rangers are low priority on enemy list, often last to go.
2) disruption works best agaisnt those that suffer the most: monks, necro, etc.
a warrior with empty manapool will still deal damage. a monk or necro is a goner.
3) the armor of casters is lower, your damage is higher against them.
4) a rangers armor has elemental damage bonus...now why do you think is that? use it! kill that elementist

granted, a few slots are usuable for self preservation, but the focus of a ranger should not be 'kick a warrior'. in that case, go play a mesmer or warrior.

Exactly right. The ranger should be disrupting and killing casters. The secondary profession should be limited to one spell with minimum attributes put into it (i.e. life bond or reserect for monk secondary or conjure for ele secondary) Killing the remaining warriors is a group effort.

Because the ranger is already a disrupter, I have not seen too many good Mesmer secondaries yet. Tiger's fury does not work with mesmer spells so they are really a burn. The non-elite mesmer energy steals are not that cost effecive either.

Even with a 14 Expertise, I am constantly having energy problems. I tried marksman's wager, but its a preparation (2 seconds) and is shut down while running tiger's fury. If anyone has any good builds that does not burn that much energy, please let me know.

Makkert · May 25, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dred Skullord

Because the ranger is already a disrupter, I have not seen too many good Mesmer secondaries yet. Tiger's fury does not work with mesmer spells so they are really a burn. The non-elite mesmer energy steals are not that cost effecive either.

Even with a 14 Expertise, I am constantly having energy problems. I tried marksman's wager, but its a preparation (2 seconds) and is shut down while running tiger's fury. If anyone has any good builds that does not burn that much energy, please let me know.

yep, i'm still pondering about how to put my secondary to use. currently testing manasteal. the idea is good, if it works i'll have to see.
As for monk secondary:
its not bad, but a secondary monk will heal maybe 50 per spell?
a Troll Unguent can crack out more, and combined with Whirliing Derwish is the casting time not that problematic. But i'm currently only trying the random arena's, this may be different in Tombs.
The bonus of healing others is fun, but it only stalls a bit. Not sure if its worth the skillslot.... not yet convinced, altough i've thought about it many times.

A secondary mesmer can pack a second drain spell (next to delibrating shot). combined with Oath Shot should drain most energypools dry, except an Elementist maybe. but surely 40 energy missed should hurt some...
At least, this is my theory...

Epinephrine · May 25, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Makkert: Secondary Monk also means smiting. Scourge Healing is a nice way to keep monks in pain, and as a bonus, the skill Smite is an attack skill, so it benefits from expertise. Smite Hex also comes along with that skill set, or Judge's Insight to deal out more damage.

Makkert · May 25, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Thanks Epine,
that is indeed worth a shot. i'll try that sometime.
an update on the drainer:
i tested it with Delibrating and Energy Tap, without oath shot (dont' have it yet).
I was surpised that i actually was able to drain 2 elementist dry in the few games i played. maybe bad players, but still. I usually was able to take at least lock one caster absolutely out of the game by energy drainage, or one warrior by simply keep running. So all in all, not bad. not great either, because it takes me some time to led them die from poison, but still quite satisfying to see them helpless with nothing to litle (5 energy skill every now and then) to do. The energy tap kept my energy up at all times.

Falconer · May 25, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Yeah I'm reading all these mine is bigger than yours bravado as well and thinking why? Guess we have a lot of arena gladiators.

Warriors are typically one of the lowest targets on the totem pole. If you're on a team you have a job. If you let the warrior stop you from doing your job. You let him win, even if you kill him mano e mano. (seriously... in the time it takes to kill one warrior you could kill two soft targets) If you get 2 to 4 of em on you... I don't care how good your tanking skills are... You won't stand short of a protection and healing monk backing you up, but making em chase you can buy your entire team a lot of time. Especially when your monks can spare a word of healing on you every so often.

I'm not saying you can't build a ranger to deal with warriors... you can do so easily. Just the natural advantage in that matchup lies with the warrior. You must sacrifice your flexibility on other fronts to offset your built in disadvantage.

Among the big damage classes in game... Eles are at a disadvantage to rangers who are at a disadvantage to warriors who are at a disadvantage to eles.

Dred Skullord · May 25, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Makkert: Secondary Monk also means smiting. Scourge Healing is a nice way to keep monks in pain, and as a bonus, the skill Smite is an attack skill, so it benefits from expertise. Smite Hex also comes along with that skill set, or Judge's Insight to deal out more damage.

I'll have to try smiting. I agree that a Ra/Mo should not be healing. Still, I have not solved the energy problem with rangers. From what I have read, you have to rely on Energy 5 skills, which will brought down to Energy 2 with high Expertise. Many of the good skills are Engergy 10, which can be brought down to 4. I know this is not a build thread, but if someone has a good energy efficient-tiger's fury build, I would be very interested to see it. Thanks.

DismalClown · May 25, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Yeah I'm reading all these mine is bigger than yours bravado as well and thinking why? Guess we have a lot of arena gladiators.

Warriors are typically one of the lowest targets on the totem pole. If you're on a team you have a job. If you let the warrior stop you from doing your job. You let him win, even if you kill him mano e mano. (seriously... in the time it takes to kill one warrior you could kill two soft targets) If you get 2 to 4 of em on you... I don't care how good your tanking skills are... You won't stand short of a protection and healing monk backing you up, but making em chase you can buy your entire team a lot of time. Especially when your monks can spare a word of healing on you every so often.

I'm not saying you can't build a ranger to deal with warriors... you can do so easily. Just the natural advantage in that matchup lies with the warrior. You must sacrifice your flexibility on other fronts to offset your built in disadvantage.

Among the big damage classes in game... Eles are at a disadvantage to rangers who are at a disadvantage to warriors who are at a disadvantage to eles.

Well said. Running from a warrior is a good thing. Bring a slow skill with you if you can. And mesmers are also at a disadvantage to rangers I feel. As a Me/N my mosted hated class was a ranger. Warriors I could run from but not rangers.

thurinn · May 26, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

The problem with running is it takes you out of the action as well. And as a ranger should be one of the damage dealers either directly or indirectly.. running doesn't help your team. At best it turns a 8v8 match into 7v7, or 4v4 into 3v3. At worst you're slowly dying while not interrupting or killing anybody. Stand ground and stick to the target. It's the job of the healers to keep you alive if Wars decide to target you. Take either Throw Dirt or Whirling Defense to prolong your life a while longer to do your job.

Neo-LD · May 26, 2005, 03:29 AM // 03:29

The method of pinning the warrior down, running a little, and then going back to doing whatever turns an 8v8 into an 8v7.

Roken · May 26, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deku

Except the warrior you are fighting likely won't be a mindless drone. He will probably have both an ele and physical damage weapon for warriors and rangers. What if he uses a wild blow to end your stance or a purge conditions to get rid of the blind? Or what if it is the warrior who jumps you, fully charged with adrenaline and hamstrings you, frenzies then unleashes everything he has?

Rangers cant easily own warriors, no one can easily own another class. Even favourable match ups can go very horribly wrong depending on player skill and skill choices for that particular fight.

He should never get that close in the first place. I <3 Pin Down.

Makkert · May 26, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurinn

The problem with running is it takes you out of the action as well. And as a ranger should be one of the damage dealers either directly or indirectly.. running doesn't help your team. At best it turns a 8v8 match into 7v7, or 4v4 into 3v3. At worst you're slowly dying while not interrupting or killing anybody. Stand ground and stick to the target. It's the job of the healers to keep you alive if Wars decide to target you. Take either Throw Dirt or Whirling Defense to prolong your life a while longer to do your job.

.........
This is so way of target...
1) its not the monks job to keep your alive. That is YOUR job. the monk only help you in that. don't pressure the monk by taking all damage.
2) a ranger is not a damage dealer. Elementist and Warriors will deal more damage then ranger.
3) if you are bringing the battle to 7v7, you are interrupting the warrior, and have taken one of their damagedealers of the playing field, thus lessening the pressure on your monks and other casters. good job.

roselan · May 26, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

i prefer to keep my pin down for the happy wamo running in circle after monky, who runs in circle too.

Sure it happenned once that monky did not see the warrior was crippled, too concetrated to heal he was, and so he did catch him back... by the time it happened cripple did vanish, so they both began their race again, only clockwise this time... ^^

For my self protection, I use swirling defense or throw dirt. That allows me to continue to pound on whatever I was pounding for 30 seconds minus the time for one or two troll glue. As soon as the effect vanish, I cripple my warrior and began to run towards my target, or a friend warrior of mine crying for help :P

but usually it doesn't work

thurinn · May 26, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

.........
This is so way of target...
1) its not the monks job to keep your alive. That is YOUR job. the monk only help you in that. don't pressure the monk by taking all damage.

Nay. Best teams are those with specialised individuals who play their role fully, not those where everybody brings in their general purpose characters.

Quote:

2) a ranger is not a damage dealer. Elementist and Warriors will deal more damage then ranger.

Damage isn't all about HP loss. If you read I said both direct and indirect damage.

Quote:

3) if you are bringing the battle to 7v7, you are interrupting the warrior, and have taken one of their damagedealers of the playing field, thus lessening the pressure on your monks and other casters. good job.

You've also taken the pressure off the other team while you're running too as you've made yourself as useless as the chasing warrior. No wonder people think Rangers are useless if people are playing them this way. If you're an interrupting kind of Ranger, where timing is everything, running means you won't be doing your job. While you're running a mesmer will have managed to string hexes on your healers, or an ele will have gotten off their AOE attack, or.. etc. Even if the RunAway/PinDown/ComeBack gimmick works, by the time you get back you'll have missed the most vital inital stages of a battle.

Now, as for Pin Down, good luck getting to that work against an experienced team. Pin Down will cost you 5 energy at the very best. 15 energy at worst. It will cost the opposition team's monk just 5 energy to take away the cripple condition with either Mend Ailment or Mend Condition.

On the other hand I suppose the point might be made that no experienced team will have a W trying to chase around a Ranger like a headless chicken, so rejoice if you do happen to have a War coming for you.

Epinephrine · May 26, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurinn

Nay. Best teams are those with specialised individuals who play their role fully, not those where everybody brings in their general purpose characters.

True, but I don't know that you two are disagreeing. The ranger may not be there to heal himself, but at the same time, standing tanking damage instead of getting away is still a bad move. I can mitigate the damage I suffer by throwing up a defensive stance and moving while continuing to play my role. No sense in taking more damage than you need to.

Dred Skullord · May 26, 2005, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

.........
a ranger is not a damage dealer. Elementist and Warriors will deal more damage then ranger.

Warriors do more damage than Rangers. That's the Warriors only advantage along with better armor. Elementalist can do more due to area effect damage, but good luck trying to group human players together. (The Hall of Heros will be the only exception). Over the course of 30-45 seconds, the ranger will deal out more damage than a Elementalist. Tiger's fury will make the Ranger a damage dealer, but is probably better suited to give up a few damage skills for disruption.

Dreamsmith · May 26, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Saying rangers aren't damage dealers but elementalists are is just bizarre, given that elementalists can't do as much damage as rangers, at least to individual targets measured over any significant amount of time. Elementalists can do more in one spell than a ranger can do in one shot, but measured over any significant length of time, they can't match rangers when it comes to damage output, since they can't pump out spells in a steady stream like a ranger's continuous stream of arrows. It's the advantage both warriors and rangers share; doing most of your damage with a weapon gives you a distinct advantage to a caster, add a damage buff or two and no caster, not even an elementalist, can come close to your damage output. Warriors have the advantage over rangers here with their faster weapons, but both warriors and rangers are better damage dealers than any caster can hope to be.

Epinephrine · May 26, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Saying rangers aren't damage dealers but elementalists are is just bizarre, given that elementalists can't do as much damage as rangers, at least to individual targets measured over any significant amount of time. Elementalists can do more in one spell than a ranger can do in one shot, but measured over any significant length of time, they can't match rangers when it comes to damage output, since they can't pump out spells in a steady stream like a ranger's continuous stream of arrows. It's the advantage both warriors and rangers share; doing most of your damage with a weapon gives you a distinct advantage to a caster, add a damage buff or two and no caster, not even an elementalist, can come close to your damage output. Warriors have the advantage over rangers here with their faster weapons, but both warriors and rangers are better damage dealers than any caster can hope to be.

I disagree. Spike damage is more important than sustained damage, and besides that, check out the tables here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ess-id1103.php

Remember that vs an AL of 100 (a warrior for example) that the listed physical damage is cut in half. A caster with a staff and conjure element can deal as much as a ranger with a bow and conjure element because the staff's RoF is higher. Go ahead and toss on some additional attacks, but the mage can intersperse spells to get damage up past your levels.

Morat · May 26, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

In my limited experience (A couple of hours in the lvl15 arena with random teams), one of the best ways to use a Ranger is to pin the mad rushing warrior so you/your warriors can bypass and get stuck into their back line. You won't have pin down recharged, but you can bet those monks/casters will start moving so a quick hunters shot for some bleed damage and then powershot or whatever attack buff you like will cause them some real pain.

Depending on what happens you might switch back to pin a warrior (if he's on your tail) as soon as pin down recharges or you might be far from their warriors persuing their casters in which case you can use it to steady them up for the grand finale

Then again, I take a pet into the arena because I think its character forming for him - so what do I know